THAMM Nicolle Disc Paper Final Draft 02072021 Cleared.docx

QUESTIONS TO… AURELIA SEGATTI (ILO Regional Project Manager) & TANJA DEDOVIC (IOM Regional Thematic Specialist - Labor Mobility and Human Development)

outcomes of the crisis is to have reminded all (governments, employers and migrant workers) how important labour law and social protection are. Those who were fortunate enough to benefit fully from both were less impacted, either because their income was preserved (or at least partly so) or because they could access quality medical treatment at minimal cost. The crisis exacerbated the discrepancies between those who had a safety net and those who did not. And this is precisely what safety nets are about: ensuring that, even in times of unprecedented crises, the worst effects are mitigated. One dimension that was revealed as a blatant weak spot was the lack of measures in terms of assistance to stranded migrants, in particular because countries of origin chose to close their borders and had few resources and very minimal information to locate their nationals and assess their levels of vulnerability in real time. Therefore, beyond regulatory frameworks such as bilateral labour agreements, which should align with international standards, information systems are also key to strengthening the protection of migrant workers. And clearly, one lesson is that those migrants who currently fall outside agreements, social security plans, etc should by all means be helped to integrate some. And this requires a strategic and agile approach from both governments of origin and of destination. Tanja Dedovic : Yes, clearly - in particular in terms of Social Protection for both regular and even more so for irregular migrant workers. So many migrant workers in MENA region move outside of regular pathways and end up in the informal sector in Countries of Destination without any access to basic services or even less so Social Protection. And because of Covid-19 even many those who did move as regular migrant workers became irregular at some point because they lost their job, and hence the residence permit or they were forced to overstay and became irregular.

To what extent do you think that a pilot programme funded by the European Union Trust Fund like THAMM can actually foster change in terms of policy dialogue between the EU and North African countries on labour migration and mobility issues? Aurelia Segatti : A pilot programme cannot solve by itself all the current challenges in terms of inequality of income, development, skills levels, and labour market needs between these two regions. But, it can concretely and operationally help experiment certain pioneering tools, instill new approaches across public administrations and policy-makers, and create fora for genuine joint brainstorming. All of these will not in and by themselves change the situation, but they should help decision- makers on either side identify what works and what doesn’t, and then what to take further, upscale and expand. This is the whole point of a programme like THAMM. Tanja Dedovic : The project is not dealing with homogenous group of countries in North Africa nor in Europe. We have completely different starting points in terms of policy framework in the three North African countries and we have very different policies in place in the EU MSs when it comes to immigration and legal migration pathways. On the North African side I see a potential in the fact that all three countries have signed up to the GCM and two of them are GCM champion countries - so there is a race to the top in which it is easier to start discussing some sensitive issues which the governments would otherwise not be willing to tackle – especially now in the recovery from Covid-19. Do you think that the COVID-19 pandemic has reinforced the need for policy, legislative, institutional and regulatory frameworks for mobility between the two shores of the Mediterranean?

In particular, with the current crisis, what are the dangers

Aurelia Segatti : Certainly. One of the few positive

PAGE 33